Sunday, January 09, 2005

The Grey Gromboolian Plain

I am beginning to feel as though this is the blogospheric equivalent of one of those lonely foreign legion outposts in the Sahara. I suppose I shall have to make a serious effort to become more interesting. I expect I am being too laid-back and non-confrontational. I wonder if I can declare the separation of Church and State discussion closed? Let's have a quick look through blogland to gauge the Zeitgeist- uh-oh, here's someone who agrees with Marco. Alright then, I concede.

Curses, this being confrontational thing doesn't seem to be working...

Here is a quote for today:

"The finding and fighting of positive evil is the beginning of all fun."

- G. K. Chesterton

10 comments:

Marco Parigi said...

No! Wait! I concede..., but thanks for bringing up that blog - It mirrors my thoughts so closely that it's scary.


Once again, however, you have brought in many thoughtful examples from history, and made me realise that the advantages of separation take generations to become visible, at the least.

Marco Parigi said...

There is another point I want to make about Religion. In the Soviet Union, religion was effectively banned, and in some way you implied that the state was separate from religion thereby. This is not quite right - by banning all religions, atheism became the "official" religion of the Union, and therefore religion was as closely bound to the State as it possibly could due to the lack of freedom of religion. This argument can also be extended to a state like Turkey, which although secular, suppresses certain minority groups to some extent based on their religiousness :- more subtle and less restrictive but along the same lines of state religion by suppression of religion.

Dr Clam said...

I am a little loath to accept state-sponsored atheism as an example of an established religion, even though it was the established ideology! One could define any state-sponsored ideology as a secular established religion, and the United States definitely has one of those... I guess I have been assuming that everything called a 'Church' or 'Religion' was 'pulling in the same direction', which is not quite true. In economics everyone is assumed to have the same goal (making money)and in our discussion I have assumed that all religions have the same goal... Would complete religious freedom and separation of Church and State and be a good idea, f'rinstance, if organised Satanism is one of the most powerful religions in a nation?

Marco Parigi said...

What state-sponsored ideology are you talking about in the US?

Dave said...

Rich WASP, presumably?

Incidentally, my silence should be taken only a sign of my extreme distraction, rather than unwillingness to argue belligerently. Except on matters of religion, on which I have an underinformed and secular perspective and only limited interest. But you guys go ahead.

Marco Parigi said...

What kind of sheltered life am I living? Rich WASP means nothing to me.

Dr Clam said...

The U.S. is different from every other Western Country that I know in being based on an ideology, rather than being a collection of people who happen to live in one place. It is the whole secular religion of representative democracy, going back to the deism of the Founding Fathers that I mentioned before, with its sacred texts and flag-waving and pledges of allegiance etc.

And hiya Unca Dave! We know from your blog that you are working and partying real hard, so we don't mind...

Marco Parigi said...

Welllll..... I wasn't really trying to broaden the definition of religion of our argument by including generalised ideology, but continuing with my theme of freedom of religion being a necessary component of separation :- ie. a state can't quite claim to be separate from religion if it keeps clamping down on it. Also that the success of the USA is that it combines freedom of religion with separation of religion from state: Both of these together being the factor that I "believe" in being of vital significance to a country's constitution (the someone who agrees with me link has numerous other people talking about both of these features being included in Iraq's new constitution) You've made me think though - where does ideology stop and religion begin? I must brush up on my definitions. Maybe I think that Ideology and religion should also be separated just for the convenience of being able to talk about them separately :-) Or perhaps religions specifically invented for the constitution of a country should be ok, as long as they contain the two clauses mentioned.

Dr Clam said...

WASP = White Anglo-Saxon Protestant

I did once read somewhere that the first letter is kind of superfluous, since there aren't likely to be any Black, Red, Yellow, or Magenta Anglo-Saxons...

Marco Parigi said...

Its funny, but Kylie knew exactly what a WASP was. She added that she thought that the term must have been made up by black catholics disparagingly.